Post subject: Sniper build halp

richterbelmont10 suggested that my best course of action was to copy a mail to him to everyone generally to see what came of it, so:
I'm playing in my first Saga game, though I came from the old star wars RPGs and I found myself getting rather excited about the Condition Track damage in the core book, and how you could do a full -5 in one shot with the Bounty Hunter and Gunslinger aiming trick and stun.
So at the moment I have what turned out to be fairly common a concept:
Scout 3 / Scoundrel 2 / Soldier 2 / Bounty Hunter 1 / Gunslinger 1
STR: 12, Dex: 20, Con: 10, Int: 16, Wis: 12, Cha: 0
Trained: acrobatics, initiative, mechanics, perception, stealth, survival, use computer
Talents:
Acute Senses
Keen Shot: ignore concealment (not full)
Devastating Attack (Rifle): -5 Threshold
Dastardly Shot: -1CT on target denied dex
Hunter's Mark: -1CT on the aim
Debilitating Shot: -1CT on the aim
Feats:
Proficiencies (Simple*, Pistol*, Rifle*, Light Armor*): duh
Point Blank Shot*: +1 hit/damage at PB
Careful Shot: +1 to hit on aim
Quickdraw:
Steadying Position: deny dex on aim while prone
Cunning Attack: +2 to hit vs denied dex
Precise Shot: No penalties to shoot into combat
+1 feat for level 9
Originally I was going for the Stokhli Spray Stick and an Ion Rifle to give me a -2 CT weapon, then I saw the Squib Tensor Rifle and was told that, rather than having an attack roll vs Fortitude that automatically did CT damage, that it was a secondary effect, and that it did -2 CT as well. So this character became a Squib because it seemed adorable a concept.
Bipod: Move to set up, swift on subsequent aim
Double Trigger: +2 to hit on Careful Shot
Retractable Stock: Just useful
Computerized Interface Scope: It's a scope!
Superior Tech: Damage or Accuracy
I was tempted to go for Prototype for the +5 damage as well as the +2 to hit, not sure.
The overall result is:
Free action Acrobatics 15: drop prone
Swift + Move action: Aim
Standard action: Shoot someone, hope to hit, hope to pass threshold, do 5CT damage
So anyway, that's the obvious stuff that everyone and their aunty seems to have worked out before me. The problem I have is advancement:
With Assassin 5 I get Sniper Master III aim as a swift action and could set up my bipod, aim and fire in one round along with +4 damage from Sniper Master I and Mark on my target.
With levels in Gunslinger 5 I can get the Point Blank bonus at any range, 1/rnd +dex to damage, and +half Gunslinger to damage
(both Gunslinger and Assassin require Sniper Feat, so I would trade out Keen Shot for Improved Initiative)
Or there's always just hitting Soldier levels, giving me lots of extra feats alongside those talents.
Overall, the PrCs seem to be giving me is extra damage options, but I know that soldier gives feats as well as talents that may match or be comparable and it's a bit too many options for me to have a good idea of what I should be going for in future levels.
Therein is the problem. It's a level 10 campaign and I still don't know where to put my 10th level. I might have made a bit of a mistake going Scoundrel 2, at the time I was thinking '2 levels so BAB goes up 1 and I get a talent' but perhaps it was better spent in a Soldier level, or perhaps dropping a soldier level to have got another scoundrel talent.
Would you be able to advise on where I should aim to go with such a build? I was recently told that I should definitely have Desperate Gambit if I want to be a one shot person (and to avoid Prototype template problems with my gun). I did want to just be one shot take down even though clearly double or triple shot is just far and above better. There are plenty of things that look nice everywhere, but I'm a bit unaware of where to go, their application, or what is more efficient, and I've been told that I should also be looking at getting skill focuses too, or skip out on use computer and mechanics and instead get interface visors.
Sorry, very long. It's a squib sniper and I want to focus on one shot take-down and being stealthy because yay small +stealth. Any advice greatly appreciated.
And to make things entirely unhelpful, if there's a way to get vehicular combat in there for my swoop I'd be very excited~

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:27 am

YOU WORRY TOO MUCH!
You're already hyper-specialized and to me that just is NOT what you should be shooting for with a StarWars characters. Being very good at something is one thing but I save this level of optimization for low level characters who try competing against higher level ones. At this stage I'd say it really doesn't matter what you do with 10th-level provided you don't try hurting your character.
Now a couple concerns/thoughts on the build:
1. What is your starting class? It looks like 'Scout' because it is listed first although if that were the case then your trained skills don't look like they work out. You also don't list hitpoints although if you don't use fixed hp/HD that difference may not be obvious.
2. Just reading the description it sure seems to me that the Squib Rifles is anything BUT Stealth in use. How the RAW on that works may be very open to interpretation but trying to hide its use just isn't going to happen.
3. What do you mean Gunslinger requires the Sniper feat?
4. If you want Vehicular Combat your 'sniper' stuff isn't going to be any help on your vehicle (see early note on specialization) and you seem to like training as a pilot which is needed for Vehicular Combat. If you had the skill trained picking up VC at 10t-level is as easy as taking Scout 4 for that bonus feat.
5. After taking the BAB hit for Scoundrel 1 adding a few more levels for either another talent or for the bonus feats doesn't cost too much compared to taking levels in Soldier. Even use the fixed hp/HD which gives slightly better than average results the difference in hp between the d10 and d6 is 3 (7 vs. 4) which isn't much considering what typical weapon damage is.

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:34 pm

Well, I feel like it matters, and I'd rather have an idea of what I am doing instead of randomly picking things up as I level and then maybe some day down the line wishing I had picked up some other stuff when it's too late to just grab other levels to fill in, or when there is a big ol experience gap until the next level point
1. Scout first, with level bonuses going into Int so I get an extra scoundrel skill; also Destiny: Background - Law Enforcement, I believe; totally forgot to mention!
2. Yes, but that only makes the sound when it fires, and the plan is that you take them down with that shot. If it draws the attention afterwards, it's a pretty good argument for wanting Vehicular Combat when he tries to escape on the swoop after revealing to everyone within 1km where he is He has a Sound Sponge, at least.
3. One of the Gunslinger talents required Sniper as a pre-requisite (however, I thought it was Draw a Bead, it's actually Bullseye which I don't need)
4. Forgot to write in Pilot, he is trained in Pilot: 5+3 skills. While Vehicular Combat doesn't stack with sniper, it does mean my favourite mode of transportation, my Swoop, can avoid some damage, and that I can do some piloting for getting around where need be =3
5. We are using fixed hp yuh

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:00 pm

Not a whole lot to add - I'm not the pro at min-maxing snipers - but I would like add:
(1) The Deadeye feat might be useful. Extra die of damage when aiming.
(2) -4CT is just as good as -5CT in most circumstances, so whatever you do I'm not sure that trying to squeeze every last drop of efficiency out of the sniper concept is all that useful. You've got the crazy good sniper thing nailed. I'd make your character a little more balanced.
Burst Fire Feat and the Controlled Burst Talent (from Elite Trooper which would require Martial Arts I Feat as well) would also make you a beast with an auto-fire weapon and make you more diverse on the battle field.

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:35 pm

That seems to require Heavy Weapons proficiency too; I thought it might be fun to use the Carbonite Rifle (heavyy) there as it would be a fairly cool thing for Bounty Hunting because, well, carbonite!
Then I realised that the Carbonite rifle doesn't say it has better than 6 range like the Spray Stick and the Stun Pistol, and also I can't find a way to give it autofire =X What weapon would be recommended for autofire or Heavy Weapon?
1. I was quite tempted by that
2. The character would also be WAY better using double attack or any way of getting multiple attacks, and just doing -4 or -3 then having a really easy second shot to finish them off; I'm just very taken by the -5CT one shot so that's the build I'm trying to do with this little furball =)

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:53 pm

The carbonite rifle is a heavy weapon, and thus has a heavy weapon range (50-100-250-500 squares). I don't see anywhere that it's limited to 6 squares. The 6-square rule is for blasters that have a stun setting, not for stun damage in general.

_________________
Destiny Pool for Into the Fray: ●●○○
Destiny Pool for Champions of Democracy: ●●●●●●●
My PbP Characters:
-

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:54 pm

Much obliged Awaypturwpn; I had entirely forgotten it was stun setting weapons that get reduced. For giggles I can see that Tech Specialist lets me add Autofire (though costs me getting the +2 to hit or +5 to damage), which could be fairly amusing!

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:02 pm

Ha, amusing and expensive Each autofire volley with that would cost you 25 credits! And that could add up quick. But I suppose if you've got cash to back it up, it would make for a fearsome weapon.

_________________
Destiny Pool for Into the Fray: ●●○○
Destiny Pool for Champions of Democracy: ●●●●●●●
My PbP Characters:
-

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:48 pm

Sorry if I sometime sound harsh Spiku. Maybe I've been spending to my time reading the crazy theoretical optimization on the DnD:PE board over at WotC. While I do favor some planning of character I don't go into exhausting detail with them except for prereqs. When it's time to level a character I generally try to avoid losing BAB but after that I'm open to many things.
As the build was written it actually worked starting in Scoundrel as all those skills would have been available with Survival getting picked up later with an INT boost. Of course starting with an even INT score would have meant getting BountyHunter at 9th-level as you couldn't train Survival with a pair of INT bumps until 8th level. Starting in Scout does get you one more trained skill than you have listed and Pilot seems to be a great choice and mentioning the use of the Background system (which I'm not a fan of) helps explain two non-Scout skills.
Wait a second, you didn't have Deadeye as a feat? What's the Squip weapon damage die? I guess I often consider that a near must as the +4.5 damage you'll typically average is the same as Devastating Shot lowers the target's DT but it's also damage. Of course HITTING the target needs to be the top priority otherwise all the damage doesn't really help.
Double/Triple attack really don't to a sniper much good as even with all the help you will still find it nearly impossible to get the full round attack to use it with your aim build. The penalty to hit also hurts although if used against a target pushed way down the CT that isn't as important for the second shot.
I know I have seriously considered adding a 'Fast Follow Up Shot' feat or talent to the game. The idea behind that would simply be to allow the sniper some kind of second shot after that first major hit. The problem is finding some kind of balance with it as letting a single character 'one shot' almost anyone is a bit unsettling to me.

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:43 am

No need to apologise, feedback is feedback, I was just providing my position. Yeah was silly of me to have missed writing in the Pilot skill. I presently do not have Dead Eye feat; squib tensor rifle is 3d8 base (at the moment +10 damage from Superior Tech upgrade and level, with -5 to enemy threshold from the soldier talent), so yeah that'd be another +4.5 on the aimed damage and help if I face DR =X
I'm loathed to discuss double and triple attack, as I'm not using them; but you can aim on turns before shooting as long as you don't lose sight, so you could still get the -3ct on aim then shoot the second shot normally. There's that accelerated shot thing for 1/enc full attack as standard, no idea if there is more. Not what I'm interested in anyway, and I'm hoping Desperate Gambit will fill in.